Should a level be solvable on the first attempt?

[rockdet]

I really, really don't mind about guesswork, I've grown up a lot through my LPs. What I hate is hiding the guesswork behind a concept. It's not as much as figuring a puzzle out when you can see all the pieces you need, but when you're forced upon a choice that you have no idea if it's going to lead you to your objective.

[BigOto2]

I answered preferrably yes, because I think it is a level design concept that needs to be explored a bit more for CCLP1; where if you make a mistake it is reversible and "player-friendly". Obviously this wouldn't apply to all concepts and designs, especially more so in later levels, but like in CC1 the routine restart will still certainly be inevitable. I also like how restarting is the main point of figuring out a strategy to get through on some levels, such as Jumping Swarm or Cellblocked.

I am totally with ajmiam on a lot of that stuff, I think the limited sight distance is often something to keep in mind when making player-friendly levels (and something I paid a lot of attention to in my levels). It is kind of annoying when you push a block forward to get it out of the way to see farther down a room, only to discover when it is too late that you pushed it too far (not knowing what the whole puzzle or challenge was).

Guesswork is fine with me unless it is in such a position that it would cause one, who may feel successful for getting so far into a level, to have to start over again at that point, which could easily ruin the moment. I am personally one of those people, although more recently it doesn't bother me as much on shorter or medium-sized levels. I would peek in the editor if it were especially annoying, for example, an extremely low chance of picking the correct continuation or getting lucky and passing through, but I am sure there will be no CCLP1 levels like that.

Thanks Tyler/Michael for referring me to this thread, I almost forgot there was still some good discussions being had here!

[rockdet]

To answer ajmiam's question about Old Frog: When I opened it for the first time (way before CCLP3), I played along with the map. Those kind of levels are obviously not meant to be played casual, therefore not suitable for a CCLP in my humble and honest opinion. I messed around for 2 hours WITH the map, and I was still going absolutely nowhere, so it's safe to say it's pretty unreasonable to expect casual play from someone through this whole thing and/or expect someone to find the solution without a map on the first try. Though I understand the idea and the concept, it should belong to the individuals ready to take on the challenge itself.

As a perfect illustration for what I mean there, Cloner's Maze (if not for the fact that it should have been untimed) can be figured out on one's first try, and remains to the day one of the greatest puzzles ever designed.

[jblewis]

I agree with Rock and Trevor, generally. I've been going through and evaluating the CCLP1 candidates pre-voting so I can jot some ratings down (at least), and what I've found is that the most fun levels are the ones that are intuitive in their design and presentation.

[rockdet]

What about the first attempt solve?

[jblewis]

I tend to go with the "generally yes" route, but at the same time, there are difficult levels out there that may not necessarily be solved by most people on the first try, but the objective of the level is at least clear (Ida's "Lean Thinking," anyone?).

[BigOto2]

On this topic, I am currently taking a Ruby programming class and my plan for the final project is to build a CC-like game. I don't want to de-rail the discussion here so I will most certainly add its own thread when I start on it, but my plan was to have all the basic game elements (with some obvious differences), but the major change would be the adding of a checkpoint system and game-saving that works, and maybe health/shields/killing monsters of some sort to help alleviate this problem entirely with stupid monster deaths or pushing of blocks in a corner or irretrievable areas. I just thought it was worth a mention for now, so don't let it distract you all too much.

Yes, yes, I know about copyright. I won't use the same graphics or anything like that.

[rockdet]

Ahhh, I thought too that it couldn't be a legit BigOto2 post without the use of the word "copyright"

Back to the topic, to think twice, I should say that it was one of my main issues in CCLP3, but say on a much easier scale, I don't think I have much problems with the lack of first-shot salvation...

[daud]

Lose is normal. I don't think a level should be solvable on the first attempt as long as the level is solvable.