Dragon Pack - Discussion

[jblewis]

Btw (about Dragon Pack) -

Lvl 30 (It's Magic) has a Lynx inequality due to the glider and fire.

Yes, but it doesn't present a significant difference in difficulty, so we let it be.

[Syzygy]

Notes on the Dragon Pack

1 - 49 Cell - Excellent!
2 - Down the Hatch - A good example of a simple design that works.
3 - Chip Battles the Blue Robots - On the edge of difficulty.
4 - Learn Your Lessons - Difficult at the ice to bring blocks back to the start/fininsh.
5 - The Lab - Great level! I found it a bit easier in LYNX.
6 - Flareon - Impressive art, as are the other 'eons'. A bit too easy to solve though.
7 - One at a time - A good example of what could be labeled a lesson level with a little extra.
8 - Wild Mouse - Very enjoyable level. A+
9 - Dodgeball - It took a few tries to solve. One of the best balls only levels.
10 - Temple of the Jaguar - May be better without keys because it can be solved without using all of them.
11 - Blobsickle - Great name. unsolved. May be too difficult.
12 - Milliardaire - Another fantastic level (that I hadn't seen before).
13 - Unlocking Chips - No comment.
14 - Key Hunt - Loved it, except for the FF to the pink ball. It took 2 attempts to get through and I didn't need the red key. Would love it even more if a gravel square were added in the middle of the FF lane.
15 - Courtyards - A little quicker in MS mode. May be too lengthy and difficult for CCLP1. Could remove some water and make some of the blocks unmovable.
16 - Chip's Trick - Clever.
17 - Japanese Game Show - Aaaaargh!! This is a real challenge! Very difficult.
18 - TeleMaze - Chip may have a tendancy to get stuck in a portal.
19 - Squared in a circle - Good level. Similar to CCLP2 11-Deconstruction,
20 - Double Maze - No comment.
21 - Disappearing Mazes - No comment.
22 - Cross of Ages - No comment.
23 - Lesson 14 - No comment
24 - Griller - No comment.
25 - Klausswergner - Good level. Not much time to spare.
26 - Block Keepers - Good level. Familiar concept.
27 - Cage-y Walkers - Good level. Took several attempts to solve.
28 - Trick Chip - Had to restart a few times,otherwise excellent.
29 - All Bit Busters Go to Heaven - No comment.
30 - It's Magic - An ok level once you figure out the portals.
31 - Pot Plant - No comment.
32 - Button Brigade - Excellent!
33 - The Sedna Suite Part I: Diving Into Space - No comment.
34 - Wormhole - I loved this level, but there were too many chance-encounter-creature-cooks.
35 - Bumps - Another excellent level.
36 - Chip of the Dead - No comment.
37 - Outward - Good lesson level.
38 - Chip Off the Old Block - Great level. Familiar design.
39 - Crosshairs - No comment.
40 - Scavenger Hunt II - No comment.
41 - Chip Water Blocks - No comment.
42 - Green Buttons, Toggle Doors, Blue Buttons, and Tanks - No comment.
43 - Leave No Stone Unturned - No comment.
44 - Tutti Booti - No comment.... except name change to "Tootie's Bootes", like the constellation.
45 - Miscellaneous - No comment.
46 - Rube Goldberg - Loved it. May be a bit too hard/complex.
47 - Bounce - No comment.
48 - Fisher's Lagoon II - No comment.
49 - Labyrinth - No comment.
50 - Player's Choice - Excellent level!

[jblewis]

Notes on the Dragon Pack

34 - Wormhole - I loved this level, but there were too many chance-encounter-creature-cooks.

I thought so too when I first played it, but then I found out that the intended solution involved waiting in the niches next to the teleport to make sure that no creatures are entering it from another direction, which is a big life-saver in Lynx.

On a side note: we are so close to getting 10 votes for Eggplant, and Vermillion's not too far behind - the Zephyr and Helmet Packs await! We need to build up that momentum that everyone had during Week 1! I'm just about done solving and rating all of the levels in Pack #16, the Omicron Pack, so I should be starting to assemble and test Packs 17-20 today.

[jbdude55]

#3 (Chip Battles the Blue Robots) - It'd be nice to know which directions the walkers came out of the clone machines, since you have to pass right next to them on multiple occasions and have (for the most part) no idea when they're going to clone. Saying that, the sense of fear and paranoia this level instilled in me was incredible, so I guess this is kind of the point. Expecting ridicules of madness and insanity from the community at large, I'm going to put my hand up and say that for all its randomness and the frustration and anxiety it caused me, I loved this level.

--- Out of curiosity, is the title supposed to be a play on the song/album "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" by The Flaming Lips? ---


#4 (Learn Your Lessons) - Bombs under blocks AND pushing already sliding blocks? I know we need to have some challenging levels in the set but it'd be nice if they were actually fun to play and didn't feel like difficulty was just arbitrarily dumped in for the sake of it.


#6 (Flareon) - Beautiful design and wonderful to explore outside of completing the relatively simple main objective, so would serve well as a early level a la SOUTHPOLE from CC1, or alternatively as a breather level (if CCLP1 will have such things).


#8 (Wild Mouse) - I was really enjoying this level until I read the hint about five minutes in. "Quick! Build a bridge!" they said, so I did. I was then confronted with a trap button and a trap. I spent thirty seconds wondering how I was going to get a block onto said trap button. In doing this, I missed the one turn where, all the way on the other side of the level, completely out of view the whole time, a different trap button was pressed, allowing me to pass. Was I supposed to guess this blindly given no knowledge of this mechanism, or was making me look in the editor after half an hour's stumping the intention? I'd say the hint could be made longer, but then reading it all would also cook the level! Without such shenanigans, an uncontested 5/5 from me. [/Rant]


#10 (Temple of the Jaguar) - Only one key is required (red), as all but one chip on the south side of the outer ring can be obtained without the blue or yellow keys.


#11 (Blobsicle) - I imagine this level would be a bit easier in TW with the continuous motion animations, but in MSCC, the almost instantaneous motion of sliding blobs make this level just a major headache. It was definitely more fun to play that say, BLOBNET, but after dying four consecutive times with zero chips remaining, I had to call it a night. It wasn't all the level's fault though, so I'll still vote it favourably.


#14 (Key Hunt) - Kinda reminded me of Creative One-Ways; lots of fun, but also quite unintuitive. I was never quite sure what I was doing or why I was supposed to be doing it, and all-in-all it just seemed a bit incoherent.


#15 (Courtyards) - As #14. The block pushing section is rather tedious, but going by the rest of the level there's probably a flipper under a block somewhere... Also, hint is too long to fit in the MSCC window.


#17 (Japanese Game Show) - Didn't struggle with this one as much as I was expecting (given its apparent precedent of infamy), but I'm not sure what the correct strategy is (if any) for getting through the NW ball room. I somehow managed to sneak through on the fourth or fifth attempt and I have no idea how (miracles can happen!). Probably too much for CCLP1, but a great level nonetheless.


#21 (Disappearing Mazes) - Drowning the tanks in the NW room is cool in a sadistic kind of way. Other than that, this level has very little going for it.


#30 (It's Magic) - Confusing and very easy to cook, as timing the step off the FFs onto the correct recessed wall is almost impossible.


#34 (Wormhole) - Great fun, but very confusing. I spent a lot of time shooting around aimlessly trying to work out what order things had to be done in before making some educated guesses and reaching a solution.


#36 (Chip of the Dead) - Fwahahahaha! I could do this all day!






#38 (Chip Off the Old Block) - Well whoever said global warming was just some made up honky, look at what happened to AMSTERDAM!? A neat take on an old favourite, and you can swim around and admire your handiwork when you're done too. Great fun.


#42 (Green Buttons, etc. etc.) - Great lesson level that makes use of some simple but fun maze elements so it doesn't just feel like an exercise in triviality. Could do with a shorter name though


#45 (Miscellaneous) - One of the easiest levels to cook I've ever played, a real exercise in trial and error. On the positive side, the level's not too long, there are a lot of strange and interesting mechanics on show, and playing it is plenty of fun, so I guess beggars can't be choosers.


#48 (Fisher's Lagoon II) - Not quite as mind-numbing as Groenland Rain (Giraffe #12), but still somewhat tedious.


#50 (Player's Choice) - Great level with plenty of variety and and a number of decent challenges. Teleport room is especially fun for messing around (:

[ajmiam]

I was warned this would be the pack of difficult levels...so far, it seems to be the pack of levels that I really want to like, but have at least one notable issue that keep them from perfection.

#2 Down the Hatch -- OK concept, but tight on time.

#3 Chip Battles the Blue Robots -- Too easy for a walker to clone directly on top of your head. You can wait and time it, but having to wait while monsters are randomly bouncing around trying to kill you isn't exactly ideal.

#5 The Lab -- In MS, at least, it's easy to deflect two fireballs at once near the beginning, creating a larger-than-necessary problem for yourself. Still manageable, though.

#8 Wild Mouse -- It's very easy to cook the teeth/brown button section by removing a specific dirt tile. That might trip up a beginner at first, but they'll probably figure it out....On the other hand, the "quick build a bridge" section has very strict timing that probably requires blocksliding (something a new player won't think to try right away) and since you can't see what's controlling the trap, you have no idea you need to be that fast. Or, even worse, you could make it early but quit anyway because you think you're stuck. If the timing mechanism were made visible, the puzzle of quickly building a bridge there might be okay, but having it that late in the level is still iffy IMO (-3
-2
penalty
if the timing mechanism is not made visible or removed entirely).

#9 Dodgeball -- Thrilling level overall! The top-right room, however, has lucky timing because you need to rush through 5 rows of balls and can only see 4 before you may be too far in to turn back. At least the level isn't too long, so it's not a major issue.

#12 Milliardaire -- This level's time limit is cruel, and this is me speaking as a player who scored a 131 in its 60-second Treasure Hunter competition! For one thing, it's easy to miss chips under blocks; for another thing, you have to dodge monsters all over the place; for a third thing, you need to solve a tough key puzzle. All of these eat up precious seconds, but the red key puzzle is the worst. It's probably possible to window-shop the correct solution, but with only 200 seconds for the whole stage, there's barely any chance to. Anyway, the solution to the key puzzle is quite unintuitive and took me several minutes to find using the level editor, so imagine how many tries it will take a new player!

Still, I really like the unusual, erratic collect-a-thon style of this level and wouldn't mind seeing it in CCLP1, probably with more time and/or an easier key puzzle. (-2 penalty
unless this is addressed OR the level is very late in the set)

#14 Key Hunt -- This level seemed to flow very nicely once I figured out the first half. It was enjoyable despite the CCLP3-style "false modularity" where it looks like you can do multiple parts first when there is really only one order (in this case, bottom-left must come before top-right). However, returning to the pink ball corridor is a big problem. In MS, you have 2 ways to avert lucky timing--either "hit the brakes" by moving against the FF, or step off backwards and wait on the gravel. In Lynx, no such luxury--you must walk across the rapidly-filling walker room if you want a fast shot into the corridor.

Also, this level is BUSTED--you can exit using only 2 yellow keys and 0 chips. (-3 penalty
if neither the bust nor the timing issue is fixed, drops to -2
if 1 but not both are fixed, -0
if both are fixed.) (-2
if the timing issue is not fixed, the bust can be fixed or not at author's discretion. I dunno, maybe it'd be nice to have a CCLP1 level with "shortcuts" built in like this one.)

Note: when I mention "penalties
", I request that the CCLP1 staff reduce my form-submitted votes (whenever I cast them) by this amount if they or the author decide not to address those specific issues.

[Bowman]

A few notes on some of these levels:

Level 1: 49 Cell - Great level; the teeth monster at the end might be a little tricky for beginners and is the only thing holding it back from getting a 5 from me.

Level 12: Milliardaire - I loved this level. The only thing wrong is the time limit. This is a level that encourages exploration, requires it even. This level needs to have at least an 800 second time limit or preferably be untimed. I'm giving it a 5 for now, hoping that it makes it in and that this concern will be dealt with, seeing as ajmiam had a similar concern. Although unlike him, I had no problem with the key door puzzle. I only failed once and that was because I was rushing through, trying to finish on time and didn't take the time to examine it. All one needs to do is try to open as few doors as possible, knowing how many keys he has, and it kind of solves itself. I definitely do not consider it to be too hard for CCLP1, but just right.

Level 17: Japanese Game Show - I don't know why a lot of people think this is for CCLP1. Should it have been in CCLP3? Perhaps. But too difficult for new players. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great level, Bill.

Level 28: Trick Chip - The very second level I ever made. I don't have too high of hopes for it. The part where the bug chases you into the revolving fireball and the one hot block at the top are problematic and are pretty typical for levels I designed when I was young. I think it's very strange this ended up in the same set as Cheese2k's Chip's Trick (Level 16).

Level 42: Green Buttons, Toggle Doors, Blue Buttons, and Tanks - I thought this level was a very good lesson level for CCLP1 but it needs a better name, as jbdude pointed out.

~Bowman

[CamdenT]

#14 Key Hunt -- This level seemed to flow very nicely once I figured out the first half. It was enjoyable despite the CCLP3-style "false modularity" where it looks like you can do multiple parts first when there is really only one order (in this case, bottom-left must come before top-right). However, returning to the pink ball corridor is a big problem. In MS, you have 2 ways to avert lucky timing--either "hit the brakes" by moving against the FF, or step off backwards and wait on the gravel. In Lynx, no such luxury--you must walk across the rapidly-filling walker room if you want a fast shot into the corridor.

Also, this level is BUSTED--you can exit using only 2 yellow keys and 0 chips. (-3 penalty
if neither the bust nor the timing issue is fixed, drops to -2
if 1 but not both are fixed, -0
if both are fixed.) (-2
if the timing issue is not fixed, the bust can be fixed or not at author's discretion. I dunno, maybe it'd be nice to have a CCLP1 level with "shortcuts" built in like this one.)

I have fixed these problems on my copy of the Dragon Pack. To correct the force floor issue, i added a floor space at (19,3), allowing the player to wait for the ball to pass. To fix the bust, I have removed one of the yellow keys in the upper right hand room, and I have switched the door at (8,29) from yellow to green.

Question for CCLP1 Staff: Now that I have fixed these problems, should I send you the corrected version of the level?

[jblewis]

We can always make the changes ourselves if the level makes it into CCLP1.

[CamdenT]

Ok, thanks!

[AdrenalinDragon]

Oh man, sorry to be spoiling this guys, but this is very important for level 29 on Dragon.

At the very end you'll see a block and a bomb one square above it. It wasn't meant to be a nasty trick just to annoy people like most of Andrew R.'s "not-so-bad-but-then-I-****-you-over-at-the-last-second" levels, but I had forgotten that you can push blocks in MS off traps which hadn't been triggered by trap buttons. As a result, players pushed the block and got trapped and had to start over. This was not intended by me. The block isn't supposed to move until the trap button is hit. In Lynx, it works as intended, but MS it's broken. Replacing it with a Fireball north fixed this problem.