Dragon Pack - Discussion

[pillowpc2001]

[Now I'm late once again and my input is probably not real important but anyway] I just feel like pointing out a question: why is it presumed that newcomers won't have an editor? The editor(s) are widely talked about in the same areas as custom level sets and it seems to me that a lot of people who would play any CCLP, including this one actually would have an editor. Even if they don't want to create levels. When I first discovered the custom level scene, I only did so through the editor really, after finding Chit edit.

I thought Mirror and Thief were great and levels in CCLP2. With these kind of levels you might not see the picture but you get an idea and it explains what's going on in the hint tile. I think a level like this adds a lot of flavor to a community set.

I think the difference with Mirror and Spy is that their "big picture" is of a CC-related graphic (well, at least if you're playing MSCC... ), whereas Flareon is from a non-CC game, therefore many would miss or be confused at the reference... I would say that Super Chip from CCLP3 almost falls in the same category though, with the exception being that the Mario references come more from the gameplay than seeing the whole map... And you raise a good point that if a player finds CCLP1, there is a good chance that they could easily find an editor too...

[Flareon350]

I think the difference with Mirror and Spy is that their "big picture" is of a CC-related graphic (well, at least if you're playing MSCC... ), whereas Flareon is from a non-CC game, therefore many would miss or be confused at the reference... I would say that Super Chip from CCLP3 almost falls in the same category though, with the exception being that the Mario references come more from the gameplay than seeing the whole map... And you raise a good point that if a player finds CCLP1, there is a good chance that they could easily find an editor too...

Well how about this? There were some levels in CCLP3 inspired by other games, like Rotation and even though that level doesn't make an image, it's idea is from a separate game, of which I didn't even understand at first and had to look through the editor to understand what to do and when to do it. Whether CCLP3 was targeted for veterans or not, it's still technically the same idea if you ask me...

And if you really think about it, Flareon really isn't that difficult to solve. I mean it's completely trivial in my opinion. In fact... my 9 year old brother who's never played Chip's Challenge before just beat it in less than 10 minutes. It took him about 5 tries, over half of which were out of time deaths. [which can easily be fixed if it makes it, as well as a proper hint]

Yes I am that determined to win over this argument because I have a lot of faith in this level making it in CCLP1.

[Markus]

I only found out that Mirror and Thief were pictures years after I played them, and I only got the reference in Super Chip after watching someone's LP. I thought the two art levels in CCLP2 (especially Thief) were dull and badly designed. Super Chip also felt wierd and out of place in an official set. I would have thought the same thing about flareon if the idea of the level hadn't been obvious. I haven't played any of the Pokemon games, so I wouldn't even know what a flareon is without this forum, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one if this level made it into CCLP1.


Rotation is in my opinion very different because you don't need to have played riven to understand it, in the same way that you can understand sokoban levels without having played Sokoban. It also only used one small idea from the game and developed it into a puzzle, whereas in flareon the whole level is a picture and it's filled with a hundred arbitrary hint tiles and keys, making it a level for me.

[random 8]

Rotation is in my opinion very different because you don't need to have played riven to understand it....

If by "understanding" you mean understanding how the level works, then playing Pokemon is not really required to understand Flareon either. If you mean understanding the reference, then i think Flareon would be easier to understand than Rotation because the reference is very explicit. (Is Riven even a reference, or is it just the source of inspiration?)

However, CCLP1 is meant to be primarily puzzle-oriented like the other official level packs, and while levels like Rotation, Pac Man, and (IMO) Mirror can still be fun to play if one does not recognize the references, Flareon's merit comes solely from its appearance and little, if any, from gameplay. References are a nice bonus, but should not be relied upon. I'm sorry, Josh, but, despite being a nice level, Flareon isn't really CCLP material.

[Flareon350]

Okay then. I still don't like how it's getting 1 and 2 in the rating. So it lacks gameplay I get it, but why this low of a rating? It's not even about it being in CCLP1 or CCLP4 anymore.

Well at least I have my Vaporeon level still to hope on. I wonder how that one is doing...

[IceyLava108]

I think levels like Flareon would best be either a mosiac-only (not meant to be solved) or just mostly for designing purposes but still solvable.

Rotation I would accept as CCLP material considering it is more puzzle-based with its own CC-related puzzles in the corners, but the puzzle/inspiration that Riven gave it still has an effect on part of the level (the center with the rotating traps). However, Flareon takes up the entire level space as a much larger reference, and that's more of a reason to look at it zoomed out in an editor or viewer than to be played and viewed partially while moving around in a 9x9 POV.

[jbdude55]

The voting is based on how appropriate the level is for CCLP1. If it's being given a low rating, it's probably the case that people don't feel it belongs in the set, regardless of how well constructed or pretty it is to look at in an editor. The scale only has five intervals, so it isn't exactly expansive. A rating of 3 dictates an "ok" candidate that one wouldn't necessarily be unhappy to see make CCLP1. If you have a lower opinion of a level than "It's ok", it can only really be a 1 or a 2 I'm afraid.

[jblewis]

I think "being a good level", "being a good level for a CCLP," and "being a good level for CCLP1" can be and are mutually exclusive. The rating, however, should apply to the final item on that list.

[mobius]

!! There is a level inspired by the rotating room from Riven!? I gotta go check that out. I actually had that idea a long time ago but never got around to making it.

When I play a level like Flareon I almost immediately think ‘could this be a picture/map, clue anything out of the ordinary?’ since it looks strange compared to other levels. Same happened when I played mirror and thief. Maybe I’m just use to doing visual puzzles… I’d recommend making Flareon harder, actually. More maze like or anything, to make it take a little longer maybe. It felt a little too easy imo.

Another example is; Oracle 1 and 2 from CCLP2 were actually taken from the game Jewels of the Oracle and if player never heard of that game the title to the level would've went over their head. But it didn't effect gameplay at all. [since I did play that game, I beat those two difficult levels pretty quickly ]

I've dealt with this before about "references". Yes, I agree it stinks for a person who completely doesn't get the reference and that person just ends up confused. But I think it's worth it for the people who do get the reference, as imo references are an awesome thing, to highlight something else really awesome in your culture and relate two things together (two perhaps totally otherwise unrelated things). And perhaps it urges the uninformed player to look it up and then he learns something. A counter argument to that "I don't want to look anything up" or 'I'm playing a game not learning. But I like learning. well it's just my opinion.

Perhaps now I should mention that I have been voting pretty much as JB describes "how well does this level do for CCLP1" specifically. However, not to sound arrogant or imply that I am any better at making levels myself; I'm kind of surprised at some of the levels in the packs and wonder why they were nominated. Of course I don't seem to have similar taste to all the other chipsters, but some of these levels took way too long or had good themes but were totally monotonous. I've taken lesson from them myself, and am trying to design better levels myself based on all this.

[lookatthis]

!! There is a level inspired by the rotating room from Riven!?

Two in fact.