Most difficult levels in existence?

[jblewis]

I'd say that CCLP2 is far more guilty of "fake difficulty" than CCLP3. There are a few levels in CCLP3 that I'm not fond of, but overall it's quite a fine set.

^ This. I can at least appreciate a level like "You Can't Teach an Old Frog New Tricks" because I figured out almost all of it unassisted (with the exception of one room) and almost entirely on pure logic. The challenges in the level felt in no way needless. There was only one aspect of the level for which I had to utilize guesswork, for which I later discovered that the guesswork was completely unnecessary, and I simply missed an important clue. So once I was done, the playing experience was quite satisfactory. I felt similarly about most of the rest of CCLP3.

On the other hand, a level like "Checkerboard I" is difficult because of guesswork - providing that the player isn't consulting a map. There's no reason for the blue walls to be in this level at all; they just make the level more needlessly difficult. There's no real learning or actual thinking in which the player has to take part during a failed attempt in order to solve the level on future attempts; it's merely, "Oh, so this wall is fake, so I guess I have to go through there." The same can be said about a level like "Chip Search" or a level like "Warehouse II" that could've been condensed into a smaller space with the needlessly long passages and turns eliminated while retaining the same basic challenge.

[rockdet]

Its fake difficulty comes from other points than just plain guesswork, in this case points 3 and 4: Denial of information critical to progress (so you end up trying something not knowing if it's going to work) and mainly The outcome of the game is influenced by decisions that were uninformed at the time and cannot be undone. CCLP3's fake difficulty in my opinion is based around learning from mistakes, which were not always possible to avoid in the first run. From my understanding of gaming, again in my opinion, a skilled player should be able to clear any level (given its fairness) on his first try, knowing what he's doing. That's exactly how I felt when I played Cloner's Maze and Stress Fracture, for which I applause their respective designers.

That being said, I don't really mind about it. The problem is probably more that I'm not this type of gamer, for which I accept my blindness when it happens to be that way.

[BitBuster]

He had a computer solve it.

Seriously? That's hilarious (and impressive)!

[BitBuster]

From my understanding of gaming, again in my opinion, a skilled player should be able to clear any level (given its fairness) on his first try, knowing what he's doing.

"Commit Suicide?" is one of my favorite CCLP3 levels, even though no one is going to get it on their first try (unless they've looked at a map).

The thing is, you can use logic to figure it out eventually. The long run of chips in the corridor after the force floors are a dead giveaway; actually, I think the level would have been better if there had only been two or three chips there. It would have made the solution a bit more difficult to discover.

Anyway, the level's not based on pure guesswork. You don't have to scrounge all over the map for hidden buttons that have unclear consequences, and you don't have to unlock a maze of doors (most of which have traps buried underneath them).

[BitBuster]

On the other hand, a level like "Checkerboard I" is difficult because of guesswork - providing that the player isn't consulting a map. There's no reason for the blue walls to be in this level at all; they just make the level more needlessly difficult. There's no real learning or actual thinking in which the player has to take part during a failed attempt in order to solve the level on future attempts; it's merely, "Oh, so this wall is fake, so I guess I have to go through there."

Exactly. There's no satisfaction in completing those sorts of levels.

Some of the CCLP2 levels make me imagine an alternate universe in which "Totally Unfair" truly was totally unfair. In this alternate universe, the inner Teeth section is amended, so that even having a perfect map from "Totally Fair" would be useless. The only way to solve the level, apart from looking in an editor, would be by pure guesswork (and a lot of patience and gritted teeth).

What makes "Totally Unfair" a great level is the fact that once you figure out the secret (and it's an entirely logical process), you feel a sense of accomplishment.



Actually, for the record, I think there are much harder CC levels out there; I'm baffled as to why the Wiki rates "Totally Unfair" as a five-star level. Between the hint and the nearly-identical structure to "Totally Fair," it's far easier to figure out than something like YCTAOFNT.

[geodave]

"Commit Suicide?" is one of my favorite CCLP3 levels, even though no one is going to get it on their first try (unless they've looked at a map).

The thing is, you can use logic to figure it out eventually. The long run of chips in the corridor after the force floors are a dead giveaway; actually, I think the level would have been better if there had only been two or three chips there. It would have made the solution a bit more difficult to discover.

Anyway, the level's not based on pure guesswork. You don't have to scrounge all over the map for hidden buttons that have unclear consequences, and you don't have to unlock a maze of doors (most of which have traps buried underneath them).

Traps under locks should not appear much in the future, since it's not lynx-compatible. I made a whole level of keys under doors called Key Hell -- one of the worst levels I ever made.

[BitBuster]

No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

A handful of levels are fiendishly clever and genuinely good (the one where you have to use the glider to erase the buried bomb comes to mind), but so much of CCLP2 seems to be made with an approach along the lines of "the editor allows me to use tiles and combinations that weren't in CC1, so let's use all of them, even when the level doesn't demand it!" I remember my excitement at discovering the existence of said set...and then my immense disappointment when I actually sat down to play it.



I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

[AdrenalinDragon]

No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

A handful of levels are fiendishly clever and genuinely good (the one where you have to use the glider to erase the buried bomb comes to mind), but so much of CCLP2 seems to be made with an approach along the lines of "the editor allows me to use tiles and combinations that weren't in CC1, so let's use all of them, even when the level doesn't demand it!" I remember my excitement at discovering the existence of said set...and then my immense disappointment when I actually sat down to play it.



I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

Yeah, that's why CCLP2 is my least favourite of the 3 main sets. The ones that annoy me most are traps under floors. fake exits, or bombs appearing out of nowhere. Sure, CCLP2's invalid tiles made me use them alot in TomP1 and TomP2, but looking back at those sets, I realised that it was a bad idea and would never use them again.

[BigOto2]

No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

A handful of levels are fiendishly clever and genuinely good (the one where you have to use the glider to erase the buried bomb comes to mind), but so much of CCLP2 seems to be made with an approach along the lines of "the editor allows me to use tiles and combinations that weren't in CC1, so let's use all of them, even when the level doesn't demand it!" I remember my excitement at discovering the existence of said set...and then my immense disappointment when I actually sat down to play it.



I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

I will come forward and say that PB Gourami.dat had a level like this. There was a level earlier in the set where the traps were visible on the top layer, so it is more like Totally Unfair but a much dumber concept.

[quiznos00]

I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

EricS1#85 (Virtual Unreality), which is funny because you just praised Yet Another Puzzle which is by the same creator