Pineapple Pack - Discussion

[Flareon350]

This is the official discussion thread for CCLP4 voting's Pineapple Pack, which contains the second batch of nominated levels by the community. Feel free to share your thoughts, opinions, and comments on the levels here!

[hkn]

#2 Dense Sokoban
Sokobans should not solve themselves.

#5 Exit Plan
Block pushing with flippers on is nothing new. Past implementations tend to be repetitive, but expanding the theme into an entire level makes for a nice spatial puzzle. You must think about the relationship between each block and figure out where to build the bridge. Perhaps the time limit could be slightly longer, to be fair to non-editor players.

#6 The Genvag
After five blobs and an invisible-wall guessing game, I do not even want to try the rest of the level.

#7 Inverted Sugar
Relatively short and simple, but still quite fun to play.

#9 Save the Bug!
This appeared in the iPad port Will's World, where it was practically impossible with touchscreen controls. On a computer with a keyboard, it works very well. Similar to Bug Arranging (CCLP3 #141) but simpler in concept and execution, which increases its appeal to players less interested in melee levels (like me).

#10 Mixing
Cloning many blobs to explode bombs? Dodging fire on force floors? Luring a teeth onto a blue button when you can see neither? No. Just no.

#12 The Day the World Was Supposed to End
Starts with a cute hint and soon becomes addictive, with constant interaction with monsters that almost gets too close for comfort, but never feels luck-based and always requires (sometimes creative) thinking. The recessed wall under the block at [6, 6] is invalid, but this is a minor quibble that can easily be fixed if the level makes the final cut (and I hope it does).

#15 Falling
Interesting concept, but practically impossible.

#18 Slapstick Tragedy
That a level with unavoidable random force floors leading to fire made it into voting is indeed a tragedy.

#21 Dept 42
Most Sokoban implementations allow the player to see the entire level at once (no matter how large it is) and undo their last few moves (in case they accidentally press the wrong key), to keep the focus on figuring out the puzzle. Without these two features, such large Sokoban levels in Chip's Challenge can be very tedious (even if the puzzle is easy). Although I enjoyed this, players who are less into Sokoban may not.

#22 Escalators
Such force floor levels just make me giddy.

#26 Loading Crates
This is better than #21 as it is less tedious and uses other tiles (such as force floors) to enhance the puzzle beyond a pure Sokoban.

#27 Optical Delusion
A failed attempt to copy Triple Maze (CCLP3 #115). Solved it on my first try.

#28 Block Parking
At first, I thought this level would be repetitive, but turns out that the nails and partial posting were fun to figure out. The blocks sliding on ice (especially the one after the thief) led to several annoying deaths, but Slide Delay (I think) made those not too difficult.

#29 Under Pressure
CCLP4 will need some short melee levels and this is among the better candidates. It certainly set my pulse racing!

#31 Switch Side
A real chore to play.

#35 Lonely
How to design a bad level: Eleven blue keys at the end, with ten unreachable due to hidden walls, making the player repeatedly guess (with a low time limit) or peek in the editor. Place three blobs and three walkers in a small open space. There was one time where pressing the blue button failed to reverse the tank because a walker or blob was in its way!

#40 Construct-A-Sokoban
A brilliantly-executed twist on the Sokoban theme. Really hope this level makes the cut for CCLP4. The difficulty is just right to interest both Sokoban lovers and haters. I guess the room on the right (with toggle walls) is for Lynx players?

#41 Bugs on the Wing
Figuring out how to use the first bug was fun. The rest was just tedious.

#45 Soko-Thief
Thieves as acting walls to blocks but not Chip, force floors that require nails to bypass and reusing the blocks in each room make for an innovative Sokoban level that was very satisfying to solve and deserves to be in CCLP4. Raising the time limit would make it even better.

#46 The Room Without Space
Could the clone machine be placed within visible distance? I am still trying to figure out how to push only one block to column 17.

#47 Spin Cycle
Almost as good as #12 except that stepping off the force floors in the recessed wall maze was a frustrating, luck-based exercise. (Trying to get the first chip is much less annoying, because if you fail, restarting only wastes a few seconds.)

#48 Green Balls
Teleports leading to death turn this from a mediocre level into a downright bad one.

#49 Partial Post Me Baby
Why must I do the same partial post (with the dirt and glider) five times? It ruins what could have been an excellent level (the partial post with the teeth was pure genius).

[Flareon350]

#12 The Day the World Was Supposed to End

Starts with a cute hint and soon becomes addictive, with constant interaction with monsters that almost gets too close for comfort, but never feels luck-based and always requires (sometimes creative) thinking. The recessed wall under the block at [6, 6] is invalid, but this is a minor quibble that can easily be fixed if the level makes the final cut (and I hope it does).

Recessed walls under blocks are actually valid tile combinations

[Ihavenoname248]

#6 The Genvag

After five blobs and an invisible-wall guessing game, I do not even want to try the rest of the level.

#15 Falling

Interesting concept, but practically impossible.

#18 Slapstick Tragedy

That a level with unavoidable random force floors leading to fire made it into voting is indeed a tragedy.

#35 Lonely

How to design a bad level: Eleven blue keys at the end, with ten unreachable due to hidden walls, making the player repeatedly guess (with a low time limit) or peek in the editor. Place three blobs and three walkers in a small open space. There was one time where pressing the blue button failed to reverse the tank because a walker or blob was in its way!

#40 Construct-A-Sokoban

A brilliantly-executed twist on the Sokoban theme. Really hope this level makes the cut for CCLP4. The difficulty is just right to interest both Sokoban lovers and haters. I guess the room on the right (with toggle walls) is for Lynx players?

#6: The randomness is at the start of the level and there are lots of safe spaces, so it's really not too bad. The invisible wall guessing game? No guessing, just a couple blocked off keys.

#15: Avoiding the thieves can be a little tricky, but you can plan a route during the initial descent! Going all the way to the left and then moving right 3 columns is an easy method...and then the second room gives you time to stop and think to plan the next slides. In Lynx, the time limit is a little tight, however.

#18: It's possible to solve this level deterministically in both rulesets. In fact, that's the point of the puzzle! There are some really cool ruleset exclusive tricks going on in this small space, so I'd highly recommend giving the level another shot instead of dismissing it outright for perceived unfairness.

#35: The blob room is huge. The walker room is a little smallish but really not too bad overall, especially once the path to the blob room is opened up. The thing with the tank is unfortunate (but an easy fix), and the hidden wall section? A little mean given the time limit but you have to expect that the farthest blue keys are more likely to be correct. I'm not a fan of this one either, but it's definitely not objectively bad, nor do blob/walker/hidden wall rooms make a level bad.

#40: I made this. The other level in voting with the same name is better. You are also correct as to the purpose of the toggle wall room- fire allowed slaps in Lynx, toggle walls allowed flicks in MS, so rather than design an unequal puzzle, I made one and mirrored it for the other ruleset.

[hkn]

Also forgot to mention #37 Forcing. The yellow-door guessing game at the very end is just mean and ruins an otherwise decent level.

Any hints for #46 The Room Without Space?

#6: The randomness is at the start of the level and there are lots of safe spaces, so it's really not too bad. The invisible wall guessing game? No guessing, just a couple blocked off keys.

#15: Avoiding the thieves can be a little tricky, but you can plan a route during the initial descent! Going all the way to the left and then moving right 3 columns is an easy method...and then the second room gives you time to stop and think to plan the next slides. In Lynx, the time limit is a little tight, however.

#18: It's possible to solve this level deterministically in both rulesets. In fact, that's the point of the puzzle! There are some really cool ruleset exclusive tricks going on in this small space, so I'd highly recommend giving the level another shot instead of dismissing it outright for perceived unfairness.

#35: The blob room is huge. The walker room is a little smallish but really not too bad overall, especially once the path to the blob room is opened up. The thing with the tank is unfortunate (but an easy fix), and the hidden wall section? A little mean given the time limit but you have to expect that the farthest blue keys are more likely to be correct. I'm not a fan of this one either, but it's definitely not objectively bad, nor do blob/walker/hidden wall rooms make a level bad.

#40: I made this. The other level in voting with the same name is better. You are also correct as to the purpose of the toggle wall room- fire allowed slaps in Lynx, toggle walls allowed flicks in MS, so rather than design an unequal puzzle, I made one and mirrored it for the other ruleset.

#6 Once you get past the blobs, the level is decent...until the bug cloning machine.

#15 I lack the fingers for such precise timing, but can see why others would enjoy it.

#18 Gave the level another try. The chip on the bottom-left was easy. The trick to the chip on the bottom-right is really neat. Yet to figure out how to get the third one. I think levels in official packs should avoid ruleset-specific mechanics, except under special circumstances, such as Construct-A-Sokoban in this pack and CCLP3 #16 Two Sets of Rules. Even for that level, the cross-checking generated much controversy (and the hint should have been placed in that room).

#35 If the tank issue was fixed, I would not penalise the level for the blob and walker rooms, but the hidden wall section is still terrible and the level is not particularly amazing.

#40 Will try the other Construct-A-Sokoban. Thanks for the heads-up! I am playing the packs in reverse order (starting with Expansion) so I did not know about it. Doubt I will have time to finish even five packs.

Recessed walls under blocks are actually valid tile combinations

No idea why ChipEdit marks them as invalid.

[ruben]

#6 Once you get past the blobs, the level is decent...until the bug cloning machine.

To solve the level you should go back instead of going through the room with bugs.

If the block room is entered from the top it's not possible to extract all blocks, so you'd have to go back anyway.

[mmoraleta]

Soko-Thief (45) reminds me of Block Unpuzzle from "The Other-100 Tiles" very good level. Raising the time limit is needed though

[Flareon350]

#45 Soko-Thief

Thieves as acting walls to blocks but not Chip, force floors that require nails to bypass and reusing the blocks in each room make for an innovative Sokoban level that was very satisfying to solve and deserves to be in CCLP4. Raising the time limit would make it even better.

Soko-Thief (45) reminds me of Block Unpuzzle from "The Other-100 Tiles" very good level. Raising the time limit is needed though

While I love Block Unpuzzle (which is in voting, mmoraleta ), Soko-Thief is a pretty strong level as well, as it uses the concept of thieves as acting walls further, especially with the force floors in the second room. In hindsight, I may slightly prefer this over Block Unpuzzle now but both are very very good levels as they both received a 5 from me. As much as I love aesthetics, the outside random elements of Soko-Thief seemed kind of meaningless to me, they would have been better as just normal walls but that doesn't affect my rating at all. I do wish the time limit was higher but I was still able to solve it with 95 seconds remaining on the clock. (550 seconds might be perfect for this level?)

In the end, I honestly wouldn't mind seeing this or Block Unpuzzle in the final set. Both are very fun to play and satisfying to solve.

[mmoraleta]

Dept. 42 (21) is also one my favorites from this set along with Loading Crates (26). I hope both of these sokoban levels appear in CCLP4. I think Dept.42 needs to be untimed though

[mmoraleta]

#6: The randomness is at the start of the level and there are lots of safe spaces, so it's really not too bad. The invisible wall guessing game? No guessing, just a couple blocked off keys.

#15: Avoiding the thieves can be a little tricky, but you can plan a route during the initial descent! Going all the way to the left and then moving right 3 columns is an easy method...and then the second room gives you time to stop and think to plan the next slides. In Lynx, the time limit is a little tight, however.

#18: It's possible to solve this level deterministically in both rulesets. In fact, that's the point of the puzzle! There are some really cool ruleset exclusive tricks going on in this small space, so I'd highly recommend giving the level another shot instead of dismissing it outright for perceived unfairness.

#35: The blob room is huge. The walker room is a little smallish but really not too bad overall, especially once the path to the blob room is opened up. The thing with the tank is unfortunate (but an easy fix), and the hidden wall section? A little mean given the time limit but you have to expect that the farthest blue keys are more likely to be correct. I'm not a fan of this one either, but it's definitely not objectively bad, nor do blob/walker/hidden wall rooms make a level bad.

#40: I made this. The other level in voting with the same name is better. You are also correct as to the purpose of the toggle wall room- fire allowed slaps in Lynx, toggle walls allowed flicks in MS, so rather than design an unequal puzzle, I made one and mirrored it for the other ruleset.

In Construct-A-Sokoban how do you get to the puzzle on the right, it doesn't seem possible. BTW, great level from your UC4 set,