Waffle Pack - Discussion

[Ihavenoname248]

Slime Pockets (#4): Blob level similar in style to The Incredibly Safe Maze and Compaction. The former of those does the style of invisible walls whose locations can be deduced by monster locations better, and the latter is entirely just the waiting for blobs to move. Not a strong pick from me, though if the blobs didn't need to be waited for, it would have fared better, but not as well as The Incredibly Safe Maze.

Non Sequitur (#12): I love when a design plays with your expectations, and this level is no exception. So many aspects of the level seem superfluous or arbitrary, but all end up having an impact in the final solution. My one nitpick is that, like many levels, the 'open' nature of the design is constrained by needing one color key to reach the next, to reach the next, to reach the next, and the overall solution has no real branches to it. That's that only thing holding this level back from being truly great, in my opinion.

Pneumatic Diversity Vents (#22): Contrary to popular opinion, I'm not a huge fan of this level. The design gimmick of force floored ice paths to get around is neat, but ultimately obfuscates where everything leads. You end up needing to remember where many different items are used, and how to get there, and it just turns into either a memorization-fest or an aimless wandering for a casual solution. Each individual section is well crafted but the overall feel suffers to me.

What? (#31): At first glance, this seems like another itemswapper similar to Tool Box or Which One Next? However, it quickly reveals itself to be a puzzle to figure out where to go first, and with which boots, and which recessed walls to use when... I like the 'escaping the level' part but ultimately this proved but frustrating than satisfying to solve- I felt like I was trying iterations on the same theme until something worked.

Citadark Isle (#32): A fun concept (trading keys for more keys of the same color and more map access) but a little rigid for my liking. It's definitely more of a puzzle compared to Keyboard Malfunction, but I'm not sure that's always a good thing.

Deflection (#37): "get the exact right half move 6 times without failing 6 times". Neat concept, would be a really cool mechanic to see incorporated into a larger puzzle, but on its own the level just isn't fun.

Wanted Dead or Alive! (#44): I like hectic teeth dodging levels more than hectic dodging levels with any other monster- the amount of strategy that's possible is really interesting. This level sacrifices any of that potential by flooding the map with 30 teeth. There's really nothing you can do other than Victim it. CCLP4 will need some teeth levels, but I lean towards Eddy's Grudge Match and my own Seeing Red for much higher picks.

Drift (#49): Another example of a neat level and fun puzzle being heavily brought down by arbitrary trap connections. It feels like the paramecia button should allow access to the tank button, the lowest trap button to the lowest trap, and the top trap button to the suction boots. However, only the last of these is a correct assumption- the paramecia gives you access to the teleport. I'm not sure what a better way to design this would have been, but there had to be some way to make the connections clearer.

Favorite level: It's Easy Being Green (#42)

Least favorite: Long Distance (#36)

[Flareon350]

Slime Pockets (#4): Blob level similar in style to The Incredibly Safe Maze and Compaction. The former of those does the style of invisible walls whose locations can be deduced by monster locations better, and the latter is entirely just the waiting for blobs to move. Not a strong pick from me, though if the blobs didn't need to be waited for, it would have fared better, but not as well as The Incredibly Safe Maze.

I think the whole "waiting for blobs to move" was the whole point and concept of the level so I don't know how it could have been done better the one thing I don't like about that level myself is the invisible walls - I don't think they were necessary.

Drift (#49): Another example of a neat level and fun puzzle being heavily brought down by arbitrary trap connections. It feels like the paramecia button should allow access to the tank button, the lowest trap button to the lowest trap, and the top trap button to the suction boots. However, only the last of these is a correct assumption- the paramecia gives you access to the teleport. I'm not sure what a better way to design this would have been, but there had to be some way to make the connections clearer.

Maybe it's just me because I've played this level dozens of times but I never once felt that the trap connections were arbitrary. Even on the first time ever playing it, I used logic to determine what needed to be done first and the order to progress. Not to mention the level isn't too large either. I didn't solve the level on the first attempt though so who knows.

Having It's Easy Being Green as your favorite in the pack kind of surprised me also

[chipster1059]

It's nice to have some feedback on my levels. Or rather, one of my levels...

I can confirm that Josh is right and "waiting for blobs to move" was part of the concept. And Jeffrey is right, Compaction inspired me to make this level.

I put invisible walls so there would be an actual puzzle, instead of just waiting. But I can see your frustration.

[RB3ProKeys]

Thoughts on the levels:

1 - Seems like it's going to be fun at the start but turns out to be a collection of long corridors that end up being more tedious than fun.

2 - Fun little sokoban with a cool design. A great balance of fun and difficulty.

3 - I kind of like this level simply because I enjoy boosting. Other than that, it doesn't really have much going on to make it stand out.

4 - It's not as much a puzzle as it is a waiting game. This isn't the type of theme that should be expanded into a full-map level.

5 - Very simplistic in design and the title doesn't really have anything to do with the level. The monochrome design makes it dull and uninteresting.

6 - You can tell it's a good level from the start. This level is very fun to play, doesn't get boring, and looks cool.

7 - I thought this level was going to be much more difficult than it actually was, which was a great relief. It's got a nice design and is fun to play.

8 - What is with the beginning sokoban? It's very plain and contrasts with the cool mechanism above it. If the sokoban section was a bit more difficult I would like this level more, which is a shame because the level is fun above the sokoban.

9 - The original Repair the Maze was too small and its monochrome design was pretty boring. I like this level because it's much bigger, has more colours, and is more difficult.

10 - Surprisingly fun for such a simplistic design. The ending is cool too.

11- I like this level because it kind of reminds me of BLINK. I also don't like it because BLINK had the teleports going for it and this level just has ice thrown around.

12 - There are way too many invisible and hidden walls in this level. It's nothing special and isn't very fun.

13 - I like this level. It's got a fabulous design and I think it's a very fun maze.

14 - Great concept, but the map is too small and it's ridiculously easy.

15 - The square theme is great and the low time limit makes it a little challenging. It could've had some more challenging puzzles, but it's sufficiently fun.

16 - An amazing maze concept with a cool design and is more fun to play than, say, CHIPMINE or STRIPES?.

17 - Great design and amazing concept. A very fun maze level that doesn't get tedious.

18 - I like that the "laws of physics" aren't very hard to figure out. This is another fun maze level with a great concept.

19 - This level is amazing and I hope it makes it into CCLP4. It's very fun and moderately challenging. I love the concept and it was executed amazingly.

20 - Can be a little hard if you're not careful but ultimately ends up being a fun level with a great design.

21 - The map is nicely sized, fun, and looks great.

22 - Fun but nothing too exciting.

23 - Another example of a concept that shouldn't span the whole map.

24 - Nice design and is fun, but the level is too small to be challenging.

25 - Has many fun puzzles and a great design.

26 - This level is fun and looks cool, even though it's covered in green.

27 - Great glider level with fun and interesting puzzles.

28 - This is alright but there is only one frog. Not really anything special.

29 - Difficult but has many interesting puzzles. Could go in the middle of CCLP4.

30 - This sokoban is amazing. It's got an amazing concept and is amazingly fun.

31 - Great itemswapper

32 - Nothing special

33 - Fun but nothing special

34 - Great boosting level that doesn't get boring. Very fun for an ice maze

35 - Too much open space, but is ultimately a fun level.

36 - Too difficult, not fun, and nothing special.

37 - So much awesome and fun packed in such a small space.

38 - Great concept and a great sokoban level

39 - Pretty cool

40 - Nothing special

41 - How did it get this far?

42 - Fun and nicely scaled

43 - This is new, but it's awesome.

44 - Nothing special

45 - Kind of a much better VORTEX

46 - Cool maze with a great concept

47 - Pretty cool

48 - This is an amazing level. It's very fun, has a great concept executed well, and looks cool.

49 - Fun little itemswapper. Not too hard, not too easy. I'd like to see this in CCLP4

50 - Alright level

[chipster1059]

Replying to feedback on my levels:

4 - It's not as much a puzzle as it is a waiting game. This isn't the type of theme that should be expanded into a full-map level.

10 - Surprisingly fun for such a simplistic design. The ending is cool too.
28 - This is alright but there is only one frog. Not really anything special.

4: The weird thing was that this actually started as a small room in another level, but I thought it was creative enough to deserve its own level. Oh well.

10: Thanks!

28: I totally agree. I'm surprised this actually got into voting.

[Flareon350]

Hmm there seems to be a lot of feedback on this pack already so I don't know if any of mine would be useful. But regardless, I'll go ahead and post some just for the sake of consistency.

8. Outhouse

This level could have been fun but doing the same thing multiple times in both sections felt like it was just filler content to make the level last longer. That being said, I'm not a big fan of it.

21. Starlight

I feel like this level should have been a bit more difficult and I'm disappointed it was as easy as it was. If the goal of the level was to make you think it would have been harder, that was executed pretty well.

23. Toggle Path

I really like this level. I used to be so against levels that actually made you think but the past few years I've grown to really appreciate them and this level is no exception. The time limit is very questionable and I think it would be stronger with one that is at least 350 seconds. Other than that, a well crafted puzzle! Hope this does well in the voting.

24. Improvise

Again, another level I really like but with the similar issues I had with the previous two levels in this feedback. This also kind of reminds me of my own level "Conservation of Keys" but with the twist of collecting chips so I don't have a strong preference between the two. I think this could have benefited to be bigger than what it is and the time limit definitely needs an increase. But all that said, I still had fun with this level.

25. Cleyra

Three levels from this pack in a row. The overall design of this level is pretty cool and pleasing to look at so I have no complaints on the aesthetic, however, I had more fun getting to the exit than I had with the rest of the level itself. The only other part of the level I liked was the fireball cloning/nailing section. Make of that what you will, I just don't like this level as much as I want to.

36. Long Distance

In addition to appreciating "thinking" levels, I also now appreciate levels that require a sense of timing skills. I liked it after playing this in the testing phase but after playing it in this pack... yeah not so much anymore. It kind of overdoes itself in a lot of places - specifically the block section and the ending. The glider part was also very annoying but I'm willing to look past that part. Not my favorite level but I would have liked it a lot more if the specific sections mentioned didn't exist, or were replaced with something else.

40. The Grand Finale

The corridor at the start and the blind guesswork with the block initially after that already lost me with this level.

45. Some Red Things Included

I'm very thankful this level wasn't mean with the blue walls. Even with the gliders and fireballs encircling area, while annoying, it wasn't too painful to get through that, since it was near the start. Overall, a pretty fun level I wouldn't mind seeing in CCLP4.



Favorite level: Master Control Unit (39)

Least favorite level: Non Sequitur (12) / The Grand Finale (40)

[starfishgurl1984]

31: Ah yes, that one. I played it in LizzyB1, and it's a fun puzzle. It's a great thing the dreadful invisible wall maze has been removed here.

Haha, I'm glad you liked my removal of that part, because I originally had an invisible toggle button at the end of it (invalid tile) thus the "what?" From the title had a slightly different hidden meaning to it. I created it at the beginning of my transitional phase from the use of invalid tiles for the sake of confusion towards the usage of valid tiles to do that instead so that levels would be compatible with official sets (and better constructed if you ask me personally). When creating my level set of levels that I thought were more worthy of possible inclusion in future sets I went over every level and fixed some things that I thought could be improved on, that section was definitely one of them. It was pointlessly long and annoying for no reason and personally if I had just scaled it down to a very small reasonable size from the start it would have been much better. As a player myself of unofficial sets I see how frustrating and annoying those designs can be now and try to avoid using them when possible. Glad you liked it otherwise though, thanks!

[starfishgurl1984]

Anyone else agree that playing a level like Blue Ridge Corporate Center after having played levels like Cloners Maze actually makes the level harder than it is because you go around trying to save everything and not take anything before you absolutely should when you have no reason to worry about things like that at all? Haha, once you realize the level isn't that strict it becomes ten times easier and more fun, lol...