February 2016 Create Competition - Walls of CCLP3

[M11k4]

Hi Chipsters!

There are a few more days to build and enter your levels to this competition. Did CCLP4 submissions take up all your time last month? I am starting to play the levels I have while I still await a flood of levels from the rest of you!

-Miika

[M11k4]

Results.

I know many of you like it when the levels are released as quickly as possible, even if it means you have to wait a bit for the results. And also some of you would prefer to just see the results without waiting for me to type out some of my reasoning for them immediately. We'll do those things sometimes, but this week I felt like waiting to do it all together like I prefer.

We had six participants this month with a total of 13 submitted levels. I enjoyed just about every level, but had a hard time picking a favorite. I settled on a method I usually don't use, so let me explain it briefly. Often I pick my favorite level from each participant and then rank those levels against each other. Now that I had trouble doing that, I looked the submissions from each designer as a whole instead. I don't think this favored anyone or gave a large disadvantage to anyone either, but it did allow me to avoid some ties. Let's take a peek at what we ended up with:

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6. M11k4 (6
pts):
"Ice Block Corner
" (based on Avalanche
, #147)
I made a level based on my favorite level and a concept I've been looking for a place to use. I filled the 'last room' of Avalanche
with ice blocks and chips under them to create a flicking puzzle. The two existing walls in the room provide enough hindrence to not make it trivial. I decided against doing the same in the other rooms; though it would have felt more like an avalanche-type puzzle, the level would have been way too long. I added dirt for visual effect and "hid" the Exit. I think it's not a bad level, but this last spot in the competition is clearly the right place for it.

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5. RB3ProKeys (7
pts):
"Tesseract
" (based on Pigeonholed
, #8)
"Sonic Resonance
" (based on Recess
, #25)
Both these levels are nice and short like I like them. The second one in particular shows a good way in which a level doesn't always need to be solvable on the first attempt without being annoying. (Though I guess it's not impossible for someone to solve it on the first attempt.) I like the addition of the Teeth in this one and enjoyed solving it in both rule sets. For the first one I was a bit dissappointed how you used the center of the level, as it would have been an interesting place to visit. The way it is now, I don't see why the traps are a fun mechanism and they are also the only thing making this not playable in Lynx.

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4. KeyboardWielder (8
pts):
"Coda Liabli
" (based on Diabolical
, #148)
"Cornerstone
" (based on Jaywalker
, #121)
I really like how you looked at more than just the walls to inspire your own submissions. The first one is a nice dual or swap of the original. There's no big puzzle here, just some exploring and a race at the end. I like the second one more, though it was much more difficult. Playing without a map it took a few tries to figure out where to go, but this was the fun part. And when I did know what to try, filling in the right places still wasn't trivial. The Gliders also kept me on edge, but eventually I found a method where they didn't come over to bother me. Collecting the chips was fun, even the extra one. I liked this level, but it might not be for everyone. It's amazing to me how all this game play arose from the exact same arrangement of tiles with just switching tiles.

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3. Flareon350 (10
pts):
"Mental Marvel Monastery
" (based on Producing
, #64)
"Tropical Hibiscus
" (based on Twisted Chambers
, #120)
"Fire is My Enemy
" (based on Jumble
, #27)
Your levels manage to hide the fact that they are based on some other wall arrangement. You design so naturally into the rooms that I totally forget that you didn't erect the walls yourself. My favorite of the three submissions is MMM. It has great variety, length, puzzles, revisiting areas and general structure. I like it more than the original level! A few small details in each level kept me from ranking you higher this month:

• MMM, I was annoyed by the Gliders being so close together in the NW (maybe have one extra tile between them since I have to turn pretty soon after the teleport, or have one of the Gliders missing entirely for those players who want to wait for the larger gap).
  
• FiME, the fire at (25,21) could go (when I come into the area I don't know what I need to do, and even when I did I do not like the precision required here). Great puzzle in the previous room though!
  
• TroHib, it's too bad that one section prohibits Lynx solvability, and otherwise, having seen a similar structure before, filling the whole level with these ffs was not my favorite idea compared to the others.
  

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2. Ihavenoname248 (12
pts):
"The Salt Mines
" (based on Caves
, #105)
"Solitary Refinement
" (based on Everybody Get Dangerous
, #129)
"Mathematical Mastermind
" (based on Mice are Good for Something
, #117)
I enjoyed all these levels in some way, but really appreciated the work you did to Mice. Let's talk about the other two first though.

• I guess the lesson of Solitary Refinement
  is that if you take a long puzzly level and duplicate it, you get a long and puzzly level. There are moments of insight here though: the first room is not trivial, the ruby road is inspired, some rooms retained some elements, and the four block sokoban is good (though I was afraid there might be a thin wall under a block). (Why is the chip count 63? There are 4 x 4 rooms of 5 x 5, so 64 wouldn't be a bad number.)
  
• I like the puzzles in The Salt Mines
  . It must not have been easy to find interesting stuff to do in the space. Did you solve it in Lynx? The Bug room works a bit differently because it comes back sooner, though it does work. Maybe the last room is still the weakest as it requires moving all the blocks to the bombs, which was a boring final act. But then again, at least this made use of the last few tiles before the exit as well. It's a nice design overall.
  
• The biggest issue I have with your third level, the one I like the most, is the use of invisible walls. This is not the type of puzzle where they really shine. Even appearing walls would have been better. The symmetry is nice though. The two things I like the most, is the difficulty and feel of the puzzles, plus the tributes/nods to several pieguy levels (Mice
  , Color Wheel
  , Investment
  , Avalanche
  , minus two, and even Road Block
  in the middle?). The puzzles work (in the sense that they function and that they were enjoyable to solve), but there is one thing that I am not sure if you intended, which is that only one of the sides of the level need to be solved as one block in the middle plus dirt are enough to create the necessary nails. Did you intend for both blocks to be retrieved? I think the level is better if they are required. If I get to recommend just one level from this competition to my past self (who hasn't seen any of the levels), it might be this one.
  
  

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1. chipster1059 (15
pts):
"Gnome
" (based on Same Game
, #143)
"The Trouble with Mirrors
" (based on Air Pocket
, #59)
Well chipster, here we are. You have just won a Create Competition. Congratulations! It was a close call, but in the end I liked the simplicity of your captivating designs!

• The Trouble with Mirrors
  creates a small asymmetric teleport puzzle in an otherwise symmetric level very nicely. The key collecting is fun and the level is pretty. The choice of two ways to Exits fits well. I wouldn't have minded if you had rotated the map ninety degrees to get the picture upright.
  
  
• Gnome
  takes the five rooms of the same shape and repeats a simple concept using different tiles in a nice way. I love how this uses the corridor on the right, and there is a small urgency to get to the next room after each bomb is blown. I also appreciate how the original signatures outside play into the level at the end. This might be my favorite level of the submissions!
  

There you have it. For a summary of the Chip Cup points
, check the Chip Cup 2016 thread. The levels are also available in the downloads. Be sure to add your own comments on everyone's levels and how you totally disagree with me. Thanks for all the participants!

-Miika

[Flareon350]

"Mental Marvel Monastery
" (based on Producing
, #64)

"Tropical Hibiscus
" (based on Twisted Chambers
, #120)

"Fire is My Enemy
" (based on Jumble
, #27)

Your levels manage to hide the fact that they are based on some other wall arrangement. You design so naturally into the rooms that I totally forget that you didn't erect the walls yourself. My favorite of the three submissions is MMM. It has great variety, length, puzzles, revisiting areas and general structure. I like it more than the original level! A few small details in each level kept me from ranking you higher this month:

• MMM, I was annoyed by the Gliders being so close together in the NW (maybe have one extra tile between them since I have to turn pretty soon after the teleport, or have one of the Gliders missing entirely for those players who want to wait for the larger gap).
  
• FiME, the fire at (25,21) could go (when I come into the area I don't know what I need to do, and even when I did I do not like the precision required here). Great puzzle in the previous room though!
  
• TroHib, it's too bad that one section prohibits Lynx solvability, and otherwise, having seen a similar structure before, filling the whole level with these ffs was not my favorite idea compared to the others.
  

MMM: I'm quite surprised a level that took me over a half a week to make got shot down by only one fault (which I guess I can expand the paths between gliders) but oh well. I was also expecting you to catch all the references it uses, which I can only assume you did since it'd be hard not to. But you didn't point that out in your comments so I don't know.

FiME: That fire tile in particular can be window shopped upon entry to that room if playing in MS. If you were playing in Lynx, then sorry for that. It's not hard precision though, since the fire boots are there so you automatically get one extra spot to step on once obtaining them. As long as you don't get them right away, which is also obvious not to do.

TroHib: I fixed the Lynx compatibility issue about a month ago just never sent you the copy. I didn't feel like it was necessary to send you another updated version. So hopefully this level didn't get penalized just for that. As far as the force floors go, I wanted something that provided contrast and overall an easier level, which I feel this level did right.

It seems each of my entries got shot down by one very small fault. I'm not exactly sure if that's fair but it most have been that close of a call with the results to do so. In general though, this was a fun competition to enter and I'm fairly satisfied with 3rd place. I won't hide the fact that I would have been much happier with at least 2nd but hey it's a competition. Thanks for hosting it and congrats to chipster!

[Ihavenoname248]

So, I typed up a lot on these. I guess this is a thing I do now?


First, my responses to Miika's comments on my levels:

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I enjoyed all these levels in some way, but really appreciated the work you did to Mice. Let's talk about the other two first though.

Heh, I'd be lying if I denied specifically trying to design that level to be one that you would enjoy I still don't see how to reach the exit on minustwo help

<ul class="bbc">[*]I guess the lesson of Solitary Refinement
is that if you take a long puzzly level and duplicate it, you get a long and puzzly level. There are moments of insight here though: the first room is not trivial, the ruby road is inspired, some rooms retained some elements, and the four block sokoban is good (though I was afraid there might be a thin wall under a block). (Why is the chip count 63? There are 4 x 4 rooms of 5 x 5, so 64 wouldn't be a bad number.)</ul>

I thought this level was decent overall- a nice variety level from a long backtracking heavy variety level. It might have been more interesting to try to use a similar, shifting concept in each of the rooms, but I felt that the variety idea would work well as a reinvention of the level. Did it actually work? In some places, as you noted, but other rooms (ice corner room especially) are just...there.
Chip count is 63 because that's where it ended up when I was done. I don't always make a specific chip count! (the rooms are 6x6 anyway so we can call it reversing 6²)

<ul class="bbc">[*]I like the puzzles in The Salt Mines
. It must not have been easy to find interesting stuff to do in the space. Did you solve it in Lynx? The Bug room works a bit differently because it comes back sooner, though it does work. Maybe the last room is still the weakest as it requires moving all the blocks to the bombs, which was a boring final act. But then again, at least this made use of the last few tiles before the exit as well. It's a nice design overall.</ul>

I did in fact test all of these levels in both MS and Lynx. I noticed the bug room was a little tougher due to the splash delay, and I probably should have used bombs for that part. I spent way too long messing around with small variations on the layouts of each room trying to keep them all distinct, and use a different monster in each, and have them be non-trivial, and start all the monsters in the same place!



This was the first idea I had for the competition, too: I saw the layout of Caves and immediately wanted to do a different monster manipulation puzzle in the space. I like Caves anyway, don't know why it gets so much hate.

<ul class="bbc">[*]The biggest issue I have with your third level, the one I like the most, is the use of invisible walls. This is not the type of puzzle where they really shine. Even appearing walls would have been better. The symmetry is nice though. The two things I like the most, is the difficulty and feel of the puzzles, plus the tributes/nods to several pieguy levels (Mice
, Color Wheel
, Investment
, Avalanche
, minus two, and even Road Block
in the middle?). The puzzles work (in the sense that they function and that they were enjoyable to solve), but there is one thing that I am not sure if you intended, which is that only one of the sides of the level need to be solved as one block in the middle plus dirt are enough to create the necessary nails. Did you intend for both blocks to be retrieved? I think the level is better if they are required. If I get to recommend just one level from this competition to my past self (who hasn't seen any of the levels), it might be this one.
</ul>

And this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on: I quite like the use of invisible walls simply because I was careful to make sure every tile had something on it. The gravel/ice is where you can go, and the "floor" is where you can't.
The symmetry is exactly why I went for Mice in the first place, even though at the time I had no idea what I was going to do with the space...and then I just kind of started throwing pieguy level pieces everywhere (I even went through the entirety of pi and pi^2 to see if there were any other interesting designs I could borrow from) and then I had another tribute to pieguy.


I did intend both blocks to be required and have since fixed the bust.

Anyway, thoughts on other people's levels!

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Gnome: I...was not a huge fan of this level when I played it. It's short, it's simple, it's busted in two different ways (yellow key can be skipped by letting a second block clone, the chip isn't required). I like short and simple levels, but nothing here other than the force floor room is that interesting. I there was also a chip in each room I think the level would be a lot stronger, as it would add a little more to each (especially the ice room- 5 landings would fit comfortably there).


The Trouble with Mirrors: This one was fun though. Good use of the walls overall, and a very good use of teleports.



Tropical Hibiscus: Other than the Lynx issue (which has since been fixed in JoshL6, actually) this one was a ton of fun. I like levels that use elements for aesthetic purposes by giving you the corresponding boot near the beginning-bonus points if it gets taken away later to go through the same rooms again, but completely different feeling!


Fire is My Enemy: Favorite level submitted right here. The different challenges have the common theme of fire but all feel distinct from each other. It's a tricky level to solve too, but entirely doable with thinking ahead (that sokoban is notable- and that's 2 sokobans that use fire and a thief to limit movement submitted here, too!)


Mental Marvel Monastery: Glider section is too tight, appreciate all the nods to CC levels, etc. etc. etc. It wasn't as exciting to play as Fire is my Enemy though. Good level. I also find it amusing that Josh and I both made a level-concept mesh style level for this but went completely different directions with it.



Coda Liabli: I didn't find this one too interesting. The key-swapping in particular seemed designed to lead the player into a trap, which would be fine...if it didn't mean another minute of getting the flippers again.


Cornerstone: Figuring out how to reach the flippers was...wow. Not a fan of how the gliders all bunch up at the starting area, but that's what happens with the borrowed layout. Of all the levels in CCLP3, I think Jaywalker is one of the ones I least expected to see pop up! (random trivia I actually considered all 6 walls the above levels used, even gutted Same Game before realizing I had no good ideas for dealing with the exit hallway)



Tesseract: VERY good example of "just because you can do something doesn't mean you should". Pigeonholed was an odd choice, but a workable choice...and then buried unconnected traps. I hate those. Pathologically, with few exceptions (The Power of Slide Delay Compels You! says hi). It's just... why would you force someone to replay the level because they guessed wrong and couldn't have known it was even a guess? I don't care how fun your level was, making me replay it because of something like that is just frustrating (not that restarting at the end from player error isn't, but at least for me it's much less annoying)


Sonic Resonance: Hey that looks familiar...WAIT WHY WOULD ANYONE CHOOSE MY LEVEL


But seriously seeing Recess get picked was...kind of a huge surprise! (can't wait for Walls of CCLP4 so I can pointedly avoid my own levels even more) Oh and the level is cool outside of the teeth: I think other constantly moving monsters (even a blob or two!) would have been a better pick.



Ice Block Corner: I understand how this works but I don't understand how to solve this at all. I wish I did.






Ultimately my rankings would be pretty similar: swap Josh and chipster, and bring Miika up to the tie and that's how I'd do it- though obviously, I am somewhat biased towards my own levels (but since Miika put them second they can't be that bad right :V)

[RB3ProKeys]

I like all of Flareon's submissions the most, especially Tropical Hibiscus

[chipster1059]

I knew I was going to win one of these competitions at some point, but I seriously didn't expect that it would be with Gnome. In fact, I almost rejected it to send another level (based on Jeffrey's Recess) instead.

Anyway, thanks Jeffrey for reporting the busts. And thanks Josh

[Flareon350]

It looks as if Miika did not award you Chipster so I went ahead and awarded that to you myself

[RB3ProKeys]

You know, Ihavenoname, the game is just as much about discovery as it is about logic. If you make an incorrect choice and have to restart, then learn from your mistake and deal with it. That's how most games go. Besides, the level is 16 seconds long and you have a 25% chance of getting it correct on the first try, so such an inconvenience is trivial at the most.

[M11k4]

Great to hear your thoughts too on the levels guys. I agree that there were other good levels in the submissions that even I liked a lot, including Cornerstone
that I ended up ranking fourth in the competition. I said in the results post that it was hard for me to pick a favorite level, so I looked at more than just one submission from participants and that somehow lead me to the ranking I posted. On another day, and apparently for some other person, this ranking might have been different. When I have trouble comparing something, be it a level or maybe a movie or book, I resort to thinking "which of these would I rather play/watch/read again?" Often the answer comes down to what is the most entertaining or simplest to digest, and that's pretty much what my brain did here as well. When in doubt, I don't mind judging these competitions in favor of the simpler levels, even though in a different setting I might enjoy the more challenging ones.

Having said that, I did kind of shortchange a couple of the levels in my comments, particularly Josh's, by not saying what was good and just pointing out some minor issues. I have found it not to be as fun to penalize levels for small things like this, such as Tropical Hibiscus
not working in Lynx, though on a subconscious level I might still be doing that. On MMM, I didn't pay much attention to the nods to other levels, though the strongest feeling I had was in the block area similar to that in Corridor
. It has a great structure (like going back through areas that work very well as areas that you go back through), and my annoyance with the Gliders was minor (but worth mentioning). You found very good places for the teleports to make this level work in a natural way in the existing wall structure. I still think that one fire tile in Fire is My Enemy
is ill-placed particularly considering that the fireboots are not supposed to be taken immediately, though some other areas in the level are superb.

Perhaps that gives a little bit more insight into how I ranked the levels. And no matter how the results fall, I always enjoy playing your new creations! Hopefully participating and sharing levels was still fun for everyone!

-Miika

[Flareon350]

I did kind of shortchange a couple of the levels in my comments, particularly Josh's, by not saying what was good and just pointing out some minor issues. I have found it not to be as fun to penalize levels for small things like this, such as Tropical Hibiscus
not working in Lynx, though on a subconscious level I might still be doing that.

I still don't think you should penalize that level, since I did fix this already. Besides it's a really simple fix, just replace that thief that steals your flippers with water. If I have to, I'll update the submissions from this create comp to update that level.

I should also mention since I did mostly get complaints about my levels, it was quite discouraging, especially because they were very minor issues. They were worth mentioning, just not worth being the only things mentioning. I still have to disagree on your views of the fire tile in Fire is My Enemy being ill-placed and even if it is, it's not that far in the level to have to restart. On the other hand, it's a completely different matter if precision isn't your thing, but again I don't feel like it's bad and if you still feel that way then it should be appreciated that it wasn't made worse than what it could have been.

Because I can't quote someone else in edits, here's my response to RB3ProKey's comment:


I'm inclined to agree with you to an extent. In my opinion, to get a full experience of a level, you have to mess up or die sometimes, otherwise the game is just too simple. I feel like a lot of players today lost the real aspect of the game, especially after CCLP1. I think players now feel like if a level can't solved on the first try or even their third try, then it's automatically considered a bad level or not a fun level to play, which I don't think is right. I feel like CCLP2 did this spot on right as did CCLP3, but the last 20-30 levels of CCLP3 really pushed that limit and eventually went overboard with it. I am hoping CCLP4 will be like CCLP2 in regards to figuring levels out and having an overall fun experience with whatever levels make it in that set.

For your level in particular I will admit was more of a guessing game at the end but because it's a short level it wasn't that annoying. It could have been worse and I appreciate that it wasn't.