CCLXP2 Busted level

[Syzygy]

Level 119 (Teeth) is unsolvable because of the position of the teeth, and the green toggle wall doesn't hold him back for the time needed to move away from the bombs. Can someone please fix the level and re-release it?

I would suggest either moving the teeth to position 20,7 or add another toggle wall at 18,11.

[James]

Teeth in CCLXP2 is solvable in odd-step.

[KeyboardWielder]

That's not something many people would know about, so I think it shouldn't have to be a requirement to solve a level.

- Madhav.

[chipster1059]

Really? I didn't even know odd-step existed in Lynx.

[Ihavenoname248]

That's not something many people would know about, so I think it shouldn't have to be a requirement to solve a level.

- Madhav.

I agree with this, but instead of the fix Syzygy recommended, I'd suggest altering the toggling mechanism to be controlled by a teeth instead of a ball, removing any deviation between steps other than which tick the rest of the level is on.

[James]

Really? I didn't even know odd-step existed in Lynx.

Believe it or not, Lynx actually has eight different steps: even, odd, and then six others titled "even+1", "even+2", "even+3", "odd+1", "odd+2", and "odd+3". (In MS, there are two possible states while you are playing a level: either teeth and blobs will move on their next turn; or they will wait one move and then move. In Lynx, there are eight possible states: teeth/blobs will move on the very next tick; teeth/blobs will wait one frame and then move; teeth/blobs will wait two frames and then move; etc.)

Pressing O before a level will shift the step offset by four (which will take you from even <-> odd just as in MS), and pressing shift+O will shift the step offset by one in case you need precision.

Also, I had a discussion about the initial step in CCLXP2 Teeth with Miika a few months ago:

[8/13/2014 11:26:59 PM] James Anderson: also, the impossibility of the start in even-step is kinda...meh

[8/13/2014 11:54:30 PM] James Anderson: why not just start with the toggle wall closed, and open it after a little bit?

[8/13/2014 11:55:23 PM] Miika: Because then the level would work differently in MS. In theory, the current version works the same in the same way as the original.

[8/14/2014 12:00:32 AM] Miika: I'm sure if I wanted to, I could come up with a way that the step didn't matter, but personally I liked this little twist

[8/14/2014 12:01:18 AM] Miika: I thought it brought something new to the level, and still was in the flavor of 'get out of there at the last possible moment and you'll survive'

[Syzygy]

Although the mechanism for the teeth at the start works in odd-step (agree it shouldn't be necessary), the teeth at 25,1 doesn't get freed when the button is stepped on because the teeth are pointed south instead of east. That would be an issue of preservation of gameplay that was overlooked it seems. This was probably due to the teeth not dying in the fire at 30,5. To preserve gameplay one would have to change the boots to flippers and the fire to water. Same thing on level 96 Glider and Fire. The name might become Fireball and Water.

With the teeth moved to 20,7 it slides through the portal in a quick smooth action that definitely preserves the "gotta get outta here quick" and also doesn't need odd-step.

[Ihavenoname248]

Same thing on level 96 Glider and Fire. The name might become Fireball and Water.

The problem with changing Glider and Fire is twofold: it's solvable in its original form (and no changes were made to levels when possible), and replacing all the fire with water makes monster redirection much more difficult, and opens up many shortcuts. I ran into that problem while adapting Time Bomb, and from the current bold it would seem I didn't fully succeed in keeping out unintended shortcuts-but the main theme (moving blocks to direct a monster multiple times) was still required, so it's not a large issue. A Glider and Fire change with the same element swap, however, would run into the problem of no longer keeping the same 'feel'. Though the current version doesn't entirely /either/, Zartacla wasn't changed despite its Lynx-exclusive bust, so it came down to priorities.

The priority was to make as few changes as possible, followed by preserving the gameplay with minimal tweaks.

[Flareon350]

The problem with changing Glider and Fire is twofold: it's solvable in its original form (and no changes were made to levels when possible), and replacing all the fire with water makes monster redirection much more difficult, and opens up many shortcuts.

A Glider and Fire change with the same element swap, however, would run into the problem of no longer keeping the same 'feel'. Though the current version doesn't entirely /either/, Zartacla wasn't changed despite its Lynx-exclusive bust, so it came down to priorities.

The priority was to make as few changes as possible, followed by preserving the gameplay with minimal tweaks.

I made a Fireball and Water level as a mirror to Glider and Fire and the gameplay is exactly the same as it would be for Glider and Fire, even with slight changes due to the water, however, it still worked. It was actually proposed as an ideal replacement to Glider and Fire in the early stages of this project.

http://davidstolp.com/old/chips/map.php/...cts_35.gif

And yes as indicated on pieguy's site, the level is indeed solvable.

[M11k4]

I am happy to see some discussion about these things. The plan is to have documentation that includes reasoning for the changes to each level, but for the time being I wanted to see how people receive the levels without it. The set is still not set in stone and any level could be updated if we figure out better versions of them. Obviously many changes to the levels are a matter of choice no matter what we do. In the current build of the set some changes weren't chosen to be safe, but possibly to test how players feel about them.

Now that I have had time to think about Teeth * and seeing that it really does create problems for players, I agree that we should change the start to something else. I believe I have a version that uses the toggle wall delaying the teeth, works in both even and odd step, as well as not changing anything in MS. Though I thought the odd-step trick was novel and preserved the spirit of the original, this version should be better.

The other teeth stuck in the trap toward the end of the level also plays differently. Had the level been solvable otherwise, we would not have changed just this one part, but now we did consider alternatives. Simply changing the direction the teeth is facing allows the section to be solvable but requires precise (and kind of lucky) timing. An element change could work, but it is tricky because there are both fire and water tiles already present in the area. A bomb at (29,0) wouldn't be terrible, but not ideal either. Basically in my mind it comes down to just being easier to solve if the teeth isn't released, which is less of a hassle overall.

Glider and Fire is another problematic level. The original is solvable, and the mirrored element change is not without its own problems. The current solution I wanted to try, was to include some sort of hint in the ccx file that is displayed before the level starts. Maybe this hint should be very clearly spelled out? If you block the path of the gliders with a block you can stop the level from filling up completely. If you need more gliders than you have, you can open the stream again using block slapping before closing it again. How many players just can't solve the level no matter how much they try? Perhaps we should at least remove a few of the gliders from the ice since that part is also tricky. (If someone attempts the mirrored version, take note that not all the gliders on the ice in the original are on the monster list in MS.)

All comments on all levels are very welcome. Like on Security Breach *, I haven't seen many complaints on why the mechanism feels different than in MS (which basically comes down to different trap behavior between the MS and Lynx). Any other levels feel weird?

-Miika