Longbow Pack - Discussion

[Flareon350]

This is the official discussion thread for CCLP4 voting's Longbow Pack. Feel free to share your thoughts, opinions, and comments on the levels here!

[KeyboardWielder]

#1 (Ravaged): This was a rather unusual level and felt quite creepy to play (in Lynx; it doesn't quite have the same feel in MS...). It kind of has guesswork but of an intelligent sort, with some "Oh please let there be / There had better be a blue key under this block ... Yesss!!" moments. And despite that it can probably be solved on the first attempt. Quite a unique level, and for that I give it a 5. There have, perhaps, been similarly structured levels - but I think what works for this one is the consistent theme - it's not just plain walls and doors, but not chock full with too many different elements like bombs, ice, force floors, teeth, etc. either. The hint tile not being accessible on its 3rd appearance was a nice touch.

- Madhav.

[Earthling]

#26 (Remains) seems to be busted. Once you have the yellow key, you can open the yellow door, step on the trap, wait for the fireball to hit the brown button, then grab the fire boot and walk right over to the exit.

[Ihavenoname248]

On looking myself, you can actually bust Remains as early as the blue key!

[jblewis]

#1 (Ravaged): I totally agree with every one of Madhav's comments about this level. Top-notch design that perfects the concept to which we were introduced way back in Rock-Alpha's Torn Down in Flames. The gravel and "encased" monsters make the environment so spooky that you forget you're playing a mod of CCLP1's Sapphire Cavern. Excellent all around.

#4 (Cross-Stitch): A bunch of varied, interesting challenges threaded together by a compelling design element + revisiting of rooms with new objectives = a winner in my book.

#7 (36 Cell): I think this level's (and this pack's #16's) cousin in CCLP1 did this kind of level layout justice already. It's not that these levels aren't fun, but they don't bring much new to the table, and I think CCLP4 could use more original content.

#13 (Cavern of Remembrance): It's always nice to see levels that contain completely pointless sections throwing you off the track without cooking your goose. What really makes this work is the amount of restraint here: this level doesn't dabble in ridiculous amounts of misdirection, like tossing in invisible walls to challenge your notions about what the maze layout is. Instead, by refining the gameplay that worked in Brickwalled / Brickwalled Again, it encourages you to test out blue walls while giving you plenty of free room in which to walk around. It works well when you've cleared out an area and note that you don't need to visit some enclosed space that doesn't have any chips. The block-pushing also feels non-threatening while keeping you on your toes. Overall, a very strong candidate in my book.

#14 (Invisible Fence): I can see some people finding any level with invisible walls annoying, but this one I found fun for a lot of reasons. First, the concept is plainly defined at the start and slowly built up across several sections while making the layout non-linear enough that you can visit certain sections first if you'd like if you find something that difficult. Second, the concept is plain wonderful. It encourages careful study of the map while not foisting anything that unexpected on you. It's just neat seeing levels that make invisible wall interaction something systematic (like CC1's STRIPES?).

#20 (Estranged for a Season): This level is a slow burn, beginning with a generic room and a few generic-looking tasks before gradually revealing its true nature: you have to visit rooms without doing everything in them and then return later with the proper conditions in place or items in hand to do everything else. It's a cleverly designed map with only a few hiccups.

#31 (Bodyguards): This is a neat concept and a brilliant implementation that keeps waffling between near-absolute freedom to explore and restriction that contains your movements to floor tiles and gravel. The variety of monsters is neat as well while not making dodging a heavy focus of the gameplay. I'd love to see this in CCLP4 - maybe with a follow-up with both thief types in CC2?

#33 (Shuffling): Not gonna lie - I was stuck on this level for almost two hours, until I realized that I missed a block I could've been using all along. The solution is certainly clever, but it felt like the designer made everything to be as restrictive as possible.

#35 (24 Queens): I feel like this concept would've been more interesting had the player been challenged to place the blocks in such a way that the correct positions weren't obvious (perhaps block monsters on both axes from crossing the area where the blocks could go, like JL1's Slip and Slide?). Right now, it's an extremely easy sokoban that feels like an excuse to show off an arrangement that prevents chess queens from not attacking each other instead of offering compelling gameplay.

#43 (Toggle Task): Between this and the excellent Non-Dimensional Layer (in a later pack), there shouldn't be any shortage of excellent toggle wall levels in CCLP4. I love how this level really twists the "Reversi" concept to make a rather confusing (though not for systematic explorers) maze in the bottom half with different sections accessed from different places. The top half is a welcome break from all the maze running and adds some neat variety.

#44 (Restrictive Argyle): I'm normally not big on guesswork, but I can get behind it if the level is short enough, and there is some room for some logical deduction. CCLP4 needs some levels like this, and this one is unique enough that it gets an enthusiastic vote from me. It's also one of my favorite teleport-centric levels in the voting pool.

#46 (Ocean Currents): I've mentioned before how having too many types of difficulty can ruin the playing experience. This level, unfortunately, falls into that category for me, with both puzzle elements and dexterity involved - the latter of which is very frustrating as is.

#48 (Repair the Automatic (Caution) Doors): Unlike 64 Cell, Build-a-Bridge Workshop 2.0, and Repair the Maze 2.0, I feel like this follow-up did an excellent job on recognizing what made its predecessor work while building on the concept in a way that made it even more fun and unique. This level gives you a lot of puzzles that feel like the original but manage to be original in and of themselves. The new addition of the toggling extension provides an extra layer of complexity that doesn't feel overwhelming but presents a neat challenge. Overall, a really fun jaunt that hit a lot of the right notes for me.

#49 (Cluster Two): I hadn't solved or even attempted this level before voting, but it was a blast to figure out. In some ways, it felt like a spiritual successor to Overlap - where you had to figure out where each tool needed to be used. Here, it's a bit less obtuse, but there are more tasks to keep track of, which was a bit of a brain burn after a few attempts. Still, the entire level was incredibly well-designed, and I wouldn't mind seeing it in the final set.

Favorite level: Ravaged

Least favorite level: Ocean Currents

[Flareon350]

Favorite level: Ravaged

Least favorite level: Ocean Currents

Huh, I'll take this as a win anyway Ocean Currents isn't that good but it is at least original.

[chipster1059]

WRONG THREAD SORRY. Please ignore this post.

[chipster1059]

I finally finished another pack.

1: It's a very fun level.

2: There are many levels where you have to guide the teeth throughout the level, but very few where you have to build the path. I like this.

3: It's a creative partial posting level. The time limit is rather short, though.

4: The first room is adapted from Chuck's Challenge, couldn't this cause copyright problems?

5: One of Josh' earlier levels. It's a good teeth dodging level, not too easy but not too hard.

6: Harder than I expected. I rather like it.

7: 49 Cell is the best of all the "cell" levels. This one is fun, but I don't see it in the final set.

8: Great blob level. Not too easy but not too painful.

9: It's another fun level.

10: This level is not a challenge, and I don't like the title.

11: Not as painful as most walker levels.

12: This was in UC3 or UC4. It is better than I remembered it to be.

13: Putting blocks in a blue wall maze works surprisingly well.

14: At least they are not invisible walls.

15: At the start it is too slow. In the end it is too fast.

16: Interesting how both 36 and 64 are in the same pack. I still think 49 Cell is the best.

17: Some are tougher than others. But nearly all are painful.

18: Much harder than it looked at first. I had to use block slapping to solve it. I don't know how it would work in MS (but I don't really care).

19: Another level with a CC2 title. But while the CC2 level was terrible except for the bust, this one is fun.

20: I haven't been able to figure out how to get the green key so far...

21: This is a really fun level, but the hint is too long for MSCC unfortunately.

22: I played this in CCLP1 voting. Very hard, but very fun.

23: This concept has been done many times, probably, but I still find this fun.

24: It's fun, somewhat.

25: A bit short, but I like it.

26: I originally would have given this a poor rating because of the extremely precise timing required to free the monster, but then I remembered the bust Jeffrey found, and it is much more fun than the intended solution.

27: This level is busted: using the upper room is not required.

28: The only real challenge is the time limit, and it's really not a problem.

29: The concept is clever, better than other false exit levels. But it's so short...

30: This level is harder in Lynx because all teeths move, including those not in the MS monster order.

31: At first I thought this would be a painful dodging level, but since you're carrying keys half the time, you can step on the thieves without cooking the level.

32: BUSTED: recessed walls at [21,22] and [22,22] not required. This was one of my favourite levels in CCLP1 voting despite the fact I hadn't solved it. Now I have, and I still like it.

33: One of the hardest levels in this pack.

34: It's a fun level that makes you think twice before picking up a boot.

35: The sokobans are disappointingly easy.

36: Please. Just an extra ten seconds. Just a minute.

37: You have to memorize the teeth patterns? That's evil.

38: Several rooms feel like they came out of a random tile generator.

39: This blue wall maze has patterns and works well.

40: I expected something painful, but in the end it's perhaps the best walker level in voting so far.

41: At first I thought this would be a simple boring level where you basically have to choose the right slide and can always see where you're going. And then I realized you have to carry blocks all across the level and there are no extra blocks. That's really annoying.

42: Why does Chip start on a floor tile, it's ugly. Anyway, I've seen better toggle mazes...

43: ...such as this one. It may not be a pure toggle maze, but the block section fits very well.

44: Surprisingly easy.

45: Fun level, but slightly repetitive and with a short time limit.

46: I played this in JCCLP, and it was one of my least favourite levels of the set.

47: This level has a minor bust: it is possible to use a glider and a block as a nail to access the red key, instead of two blocks. The whole toggle wall mechanism is pointless too. Other than that, it's a great level.

48: It's hard to improve on the original Automatic (Caution) Doors. This one is better than most sequels, but the original remains better.

49: I don't have the patience for levels like this.

50: A really good level.

[Ihavenoname248]

4: The first room is adapted from Chuck's Challenge, couldn't this cause copyright problems?

12: This was in UC3 or UC4. It is better than I remembered it to be.

19: Another level with a CC2 title. But while the CC2 level was terrible except for the bust, this one is fun.

47: This level has a minor bust: it is possible to use a glider and a block as a nail to access the red key, instead of two blocks. The whole toggle wall mechanism is pointless too. Other than that, it's a great level.

4. Not really. Buried (in another pack) took Lesson 1 as a base. I think Rock has Torn Down in Flames (burned version of Nuts and Bolts) in a pack later as well, but I may be mistaken. Many other levels adapted sokobans from various other sources, including Oracle and Oracle II in CCLP2, which are both exact copies with no gameplay changes or additional content to the level of levels from Jewels of the Oracle. If those got through, one small room won't be an issue, like in Everybody Get Dangerous.

12. This was designed by Eddy, not me.

19. Designed before CC2 was released. Really, level names matching another level somewhere doesn't matter. If the level does well with a duplicate name it'd be renamed for CCLP4, like "Fire Flies" was to "Fire Bugs" and "Fire Trap" to "Fire and Water" for CCLP2. Also, the CC2 level is named Bombs Quad instead of Bomb Squad, so that's not even accurate!

47. Kind of surprised that didn't get the "BUSTED:" treatment... the toggle walls allow the player to get the gliders out of the way while moving blocks and nailing, and also reverse the rotation direction at the end, preventing a possible cook.

[Flareon350]

I think Rock has Torn Down in Flames (burned version of Nuts and Bolts) in a pack later as well, but I may be mistaken.

[Click to Show Content]

You're mistaken, that level isn't in voting.